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Topic: Where did everyone go?

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Steve Barber
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Where did everyone go?
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  I just wondered where the folks who were posting here have all gone to? 

When I first came to this website, there was some activity going on, pretty much at a constant rate.  It has sadly dropped off to zero, the past week or so.  I just wondered what , if anything, has happened, or if this is just due to the time of the year? 

 Just checking.

 Thanks, all,
 Steve

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UK Dave
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It must be that de-odourant you are using Steve LOL

No seriously, it goes that way sometimes. Ray has been quiet this past week or two so I presume he is away touring. I'm sure before long that there'll be another session of activity.

Keep posting. I love reading your contributions!

Regards
Dave

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Ralph Terrana
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Hey Steve. I bop in from time to time.

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RAY MONETTE
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HI GUYS,

ABOUT 10 DAYS AGO MY WIFE FELL AND BROKE HER ARM.NEEDLESS TO SAY,I'VE BEEN BUSY TAKING CARE OF HER.SHE'S DOING BETTER NOW,AND THINGS SHOULD GET BACK TO SOMEWHAT NORMAL AROUND HERE.

I'LL BE BACK.......AS SOON AS I CAN.

RAY

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Steve Barber
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 Dear Ray

   I am very sorry to hear the news concerning your wife.  I hope she is okay. 

   I'm sure everyone here wish her the best, and a full very speedy recovery. 

 Warm regards,
 Steve

   

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Steve Barber
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  Hello Dave,

 Thanks very much for your reply, and your very nice compliment.  I really enjoy your sense of humor!

  I have to tell you, this is the nicest, most respectful group of people I have ever chatted with, concerning a rock group. 

  I very much enjoy(ed) reading all of your posts , past and present. ( I read all the ones you posted before I visited).

  We must keep Ray and his wife in our prayers!

 Take care, and thanks again.

 Steve

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Steve Barber
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     Hi Ralph,

    Thanks for your reply.

     I have seen you in here posting off an on.   I read everything that gets posted, everyday.  I was beginning to think maybe I was posting-- and and asking --too many questions and stuff.   I am glad to see that I was wrong.

     Thanks again,

 Steve

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UK Dave
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Hi Ray

Best wishes For Judy's speedy recovery. I can imagine it will put a lot more work your way!

Steve, ask as many questions as you like. Keep the Forum alive!



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Ralph Terrana
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Dave is absolutely right Steve. The more questions the merrier. I like this forum and contribute what I'm able to and also learn things I didn't know.

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rich
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wheres gil &pete?r they antisocial?



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Ralph Terrana
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Rich,

Gil posts from time to time. 



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Steve Barber
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Thanks Dave and Ralph. 

  I was afraid I was asking too many questions that may have been covered here already.  Was sort of feeling reluctant to post too much. Now that you have told me to ask away...here are a few others I would like to ask if I may.  Some of these might be dumb, so bear with me. 1.  Can anyone tell me who sings the tune " Feelin' Alright" on the  debut LP.  That sounds somewhat like Pete, but he must be disguising his voice, for it is a tad higher.   2. Who sings " No. 1 Man" on Ecology, and "When Joannie Smiles"  Is that Rod Richards, or Kenny James? 3.  Ray, when you guys recorded " Nice to be with you", which of the back up vocals is yourself?  I count 6 people singing and holding the note when singing the  line " Nice to be with you" in the middle.  It sounds like the last one is repeated by someone who sang the same line earlier in that part, but, I am sure your voice is in there somewhere?   That is such a great tune.  I used to get a lump in my throat at the closing lines, when I first got the album. After being so amazed at the many tunes on the album, and hearing all of you guys soloing and so forth, I always wondered what it would be like after all the stress and excitement of touring died down, and meeting fans and so forth on the road.  The song closes the album on a sort of sad note for me, because I didn't want it to end. 4. Ray, since I didn't get to see you guys live, I never got to see exactly what you were doing in your solo in "Get Ready".  How are you getting all those sounds being produced?  I recall on TV seeing you running the neck back and forth on your amp, at times, and wondered if that is what you are doing there.  You sre getting some of the freakiest sounds during that solo, and during Gil's sax solo!5. Ray, during "Ma", in the middle part...where it is just spacey- music... what is the instrument or effects you guys used to get what reminds me of a space ship flying around?  It builds up and keeps building up, and sounds like it is going to crash, and then just stops, leaving you speechless.  I remember the first time I listened to it with head sets the unbelievable stuff going on in that section.  I ''turned'' so many friends ''on'' to that album, they they ran out and bought it!!   Everyone was amazed at that section.  I still am to this day. Well, I will leave it at this.  I have some other questions, but don't want to overload.  Thanks so much, all. Steve

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UK Dave
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Ooh some tough questions there Steve. I think Ralph will be well placed to answer questions about who sang lead on the early RE songs. John Persh, Gil Bridges and Rod Richards all sang lead on one song or another I think.

Feelin' Alright is definitely not Pete to my ears. (Incidentally this Dave Mason song was also recorded by another of my favourite bands, Chairmen of the Board. It is quite possible that Ray Monette played guitar on this song as he did many sessions for COTB and the Invictus label)

I recently implied that "Nice To Be With You" kind of sounded out of place being a studio cut to end the live album, but I must stress I love the song and Steve, you have summed it up perfectly. It does sound kind of sad because you just want to hear more live songs. But looking at it from the other perspective, as Ray (I think) said, it was the band saying a "thank you" to the fans that attend their shows.

Rare Earth could certainly write some nice ballads. I always like to hear "Think of the Children" from "Willie Remembers". It features some nice piano and organ from Mark, great vocal harmonies and a tasty sax solo. To think that the Motown powers decided to draft Norman Whitfield back in as the staff writer for "Ma" seems very dubious when you compare TOTC to "Come With Me" off the latter album. What a waste of 4.45 minutes that was! Actually, I take that back. The backing track with Ray on guitar, Ed's timbales, Gil's sax etc is great. The added female noises are, to me, just a distraction.

Hey, now THERE'S a question Steve. Who did the vocals on "Come With Me"? 

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MDF
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HELLO AGAIN STEVE AND UK DAVE

MAYBE TONY MAY HAVE A INSIGHT ON WHO SANG WHAT.....I E-MAILED PETER A FEW MONTHS AGO....HE TOLD ME THAT A LOT OF THE SONGS ON THE ECOLOGY ALBUM WERE TAKEN FROM THE GENERATION ALBUM AND RE-RECORDED.....BECAUSE THE MOVIE BOMBED AND THE SOUNDTRACK WAS NEVER RELEASED....ON GET READY...HE SAID THAT HIMSELF,GIL,JOHN SHARED THE LEADS....GIL SANG MAGIC KEY,FEELIN ALRIGHT ON GET READY AND NUMBER ONE MAN ON ECOLOGY.....JOHN SANG TRAIN TO NOWWHERE ON GET READY AND NICE PLACE TO VISIT ON ECOLOGY..WHEN JOANIE SMILES WAS ON THE GENERATION BUT USED THE SONG FOR A B-SIDE,JOHN SANG THIS ALSO...KENNY JAMES DID NO LEAD SINGING...HOWEVER TONY TOLD ME THAT ROD"S ONLY LEAD VOCAL WAS ON DREAMS/ANSWERS ON SEARCHIN........

HOPE THIS HELPS...
MDF

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peter
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Hey Steve, the Get Ready LP is not the debut release, it is the Dreams Answers album that was 1st, out in 68'.  Have you heard it?  And without doubt it is Rod Richards on Feelin Alright. 

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UK Dave
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Steve

Just in case you didn't know, Rod Richards and Kenny James are still active in the music business and these websites might be of interest if you want to see what they are up to these days:

http://www.rodrichards.com/

http://www.buncheband.com/

From later line-ups Reggie McBride and Jerry La Croix also have their own sites.


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Steve Barber
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Hi peter,

    (You wouldn't be  Peter Rivera, would you?) 

 I am very embarrassed and ashamed to say that I do not own--nor have I heard-- the actual debut Rare Earth album, on Verve records.  I remember picking that thing up and looking it over so many times in the very early 70's, and thinking " I don't know..."  I could kick myself right in the behind for never having bought it. 

What I bought instead, in 1974, was an Imported album of I believe "Greatest Hits".  The group was on a beach on the cover( as i recall), and the recordings were by far FAR better in quality than the actual Motown releases, even though they were on the Rare Earth label, which was the label that had the one portion of it in white as opposed to the all orange American releases.  "Hey Big Brother" was on it, and it was the first time I had heard the studio production of it.   I will never find that first album. I am sure of that.

 Thanks for the info, re: Rod Richards singing " Feelin' Alright".  I should have figured it out  because he says that classic line in there "Yea  'scuse me while I play my axe".  Funny thing about that line...when I was 14, and first heard that line... my fellow  band members and I thought he said " yea, 'scuse me while I play my a**" LOL!! 

 Thanks ever so much for cleraring it up for me!

 Steve

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JP2
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I thought Rod sang "No. 1 Man"?

-JP2

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john
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yes you are right 100%.

Rod is the singer on No1 Man.  Its easy to tell Rod's voice because of the Road album on which he is lead singer and his solo album called Blues With A Feeling.

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MDF
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HELLO STEVE!

OH NO! MY APOLOGISES TO YOU ON THE WRONG INFO....I WENT BACK TO MY E-MAIL FILE FROM  PETER RIVERA AND FOR THE LIFE OF ME  I MISUNDERSTOOD ON WHO SUNG WHAT.....ROD DID SING ON FEELING ALRIGHT AND NUMBER ONE MAN!!!SORRY MY SNAFU!! SO I GUESS I AM THE ASS OF THE DAY...HEE HAW HEE HAW

REGARDS...
MDF

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Steve Barber
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 Hi MDF,

 Please, no apology necessary.  We all make errors!  You are not ''the a** of the day".  
 
 I am just very happy to know , now, who sang what. 

 Thanks for your apology, none the less.

  Sincerely,
 Steve

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UK Dave
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Seven days with no posts... everyone's gone again Steve, including yourself? :)

Maybe I can use this quiet time to ask a trivial question. On "Band Together" there's a song called "Mota Molata" Ray co-wrote this with Mark, Peter and John Ryan. I've often wondered where the title came from? It seems like its almost an anagram of Tamla Motown but not quite.



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Steve Barber
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   Hi Dave,

 Actually, I was thinking about bidding everyone a farewell, just last night because of the lack of activity here.  I wanted to thank all of you for your friendly, prompt responses, and say thanks to Ray for taking time to answer my questions, and let him know what a pleasure it has been to actually have  had some dialogue with an actual member of Rare Earth!

 I have exhausted all of the questions I have had from over the years, but, it saddens me to see forums, such as this great one, with such inactivity, when this is obviously one of the greatest bands the world has known. 

 I didn't listen to Rare Earth after the "Ma" album, so, kind of felt like I am not a complete fan of the band the way the rest of you are. As a drummer/percussionist, I became caught up in the progressive rock movement in the early/mid 70's, and sort of changed my tastes in music at that time, but continued to listen to the Rare Earth albums I had in my collection, along with Emerson, Lake and Palmer, YES, Jethro Tull,  and the likes.  

I guess though, that there is only so much one can post, and I now feel silly about some of the questions I have recently asked Ray.  My apologies for some of the rather silly points I brought up.

 I hope that things pick back up again.  I have learned a lot from the different posts, and hope to learn more.


 Thanks ever so much,
 Steve

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tony
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i agree i think this should be closed down and someone start a new forum elsewhere

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Steve Barber
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 Tony,


 With all due respect...

   Please allow me to correct any indication that I might have given in regard to this forum being closed down; that was not at all what I was saying/suggesting. 

 I was pointing out that I think it is sad that so few people post here, to keep the forum alive, when Rare Earth was one of the greatest bands the world has ever known, and that I have little to say in comparrsion to the rest of you, since I didn't purchase anything after the "Ma" album, I have run out of things to ask/post.

 My sincere apologies to all if I gave any indication that I thought the forum should be ''closed down''.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I think this is a great website, and forum.

 Respectfully yours,

 Steve

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UK Dave
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Steve

None of your questions warrant an apology. You raised some interesting points. I hope you don't decide to desert us. Its never too late to listen to those later albums by the way. You might find you still like a lot of it.

Tony

You surprise me. I don't think the regular posters would like to see this site closed down. With respect, do you think a new forum set up elsewhere is going to attract more posts? I seriously doubt it. In any case, if you want to see a new one elsewhere why leave it to "someone else"? If you are disatisfied you presumably have some ideas of your own. I'm all for having other RE sites to visit.

Personally I think this website will take some beating. Take a look around at the wealth of information on the other pages. A lot of hard work has been put into this site. The forum is just a small element of the site and the fact that Ray Monette, Ralph Terrana and other RE associates continue to post here is a great endorsement.

I'm sure there are yahoo groups and my space groups who exchange views on Rare Earth. At least I hope there are. However this site, for me anyway, is always first choice if I want to find something out or just catch up on one of my favourite bands (and record labels) of all time.


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peter
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I love this forum, I dont always contribute but always like looking through to see what people are talking about.  Whatever happened to JOCKO?

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Ralph Terrana
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Here is a clip of Pete's new band, Peter Rivera a celebrate.

www.peterivera.com

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RAY MONETTE
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HI GUYS,

THANKS FOR ALL THE GOOD THOUGHTS. MY WIFE IS COMING ALONG VERY WELL.

STEVE, YOU'RE QUESTIONS ARE NOT SILLY!! WITH MY MEMORY,I'M NOT SURE I CAN ANSWER ALL OF THEM,THOUGH.
ON THE GET READY SOLO I WAS USING MY USUAL EFFECTS,AND I DID SLIDE THE NECK OF THE GUITAR ON MY AMP.THE OTHER SOUNDS YOU HEAR ARE ME PLAYING SLIDE GUITAR WITH MY FRONT TEETH.AND DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!!! I ENDED UP USING THAT ON THE LAST "LOSING YOU" SOLO YEARS LATER. THE GUYS WOULD SAY IT REALLY FREAKED SOME PEOPLE OUT,AND PROBABLY MADE OTHERS CRINGE.

ON "MA",I REALLY CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT WE DID ON THAT SECTION YOU TALKED ABOUT.

DAVE, THE VOICE ON "COME WITH ME" WAS NORMAN'S SECRETARY. HER NAME IS ASYRI. HE HAD HER DO THE MOANS AND GROANS ON THAT SONG.

RAY

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UK Dave
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Welcome back Ray. Glad your wife is recovering.

I presume the band weren't around to witness Asyri's vocal contribution to Come With Me?  

I never thought I'd get to hear who did those noises, or that it was Eddie that spoke those opening lines on Smiling Faces Sometimes. This is what makes this website so great.

I don't suppose it was Norman's secretary that posed on the sleeve of Midnight Lady by any chance?

Talking of sleeves, One World is IMO the best by far, but I also like the Willie Remembers sleeve. I once asked Peter if there was a story behind the cover and he said there wasn't. I just wondered whether the photo related to something on the album. I tend to miss lyrics, so excuse me if I'm being dumb, but where did the album title and the idea for the sleeve come from?



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RAY MONETTE
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THANKS DAVE,

ACTUALLY,WE WERE THERE FOR ASYRI'S OVERDUB. THERE WAS QUITE A COMMOTION GOING ON IN THE CONTROL ROOM.LOL.

THE GIRL ON MIDNIGHT LADY WAS A LOCAL MODEL.

ON WILLIE,THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT KNOW WHAT IT ALL MEANS ARE THE CREATORS ED CARAEFF,AND DAVID LARKHAM.I'M SURE MOTOWN WAS WONDERING THE SAME THING,AS WERE WE,BUT IT WAS EYE-CATCHING.

"WILLIE" WAS PLAYED BY A MOVIE CHARACTER ACTOR CALLED BEN FROMM.HE WAS IN SEVERAL MOVIE/TV SHOWS OVER THE YEARS.

RAY

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UK Dave
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I'm even more intrigued about Willie now Ray.

Looking at it from my UK point of view, I was a teenager who'd not long been buying records. I was buying Motown and Invictus singles but was starting to appreciate rock music and Rare Earth, for me, were the perfect cross over. It seemed to be an unwritten rule that you either liked rock or soul, not both. I couldn't buy into that. I recall that Stevie Wonder changed all that with Talking Book. Once he toured with the Rolling Stones, suddenly my "rock" friends were giving the thumbs up to soul music!

I'd already been buying Rare Earth and White Trash records and now bands like J. Geils and Humble Pie were suddenly recording covers of HDH compositions.

One World and In Concert were so good I played them almost to destruction. Back then, we didn't have websites and emails, so the first I knew of Willie Remembers was when it suddenly appeared in the "New releases" racks at the local store, though to be fair, Motown UK did run a half page promotional ad in the music papers. I still remember how eye catching the cover was, though I was disappointed it wasn't a gatefold. I think there was some sort of paper shortage at the time, and even bands like Deep Purple moved away from gatefold sleeves for a couple of years. 

On reading the sleeve and label, I was gutted when I found that John Persh had apparently left the band but pleased to see the songs were all RE / Tom Baird compositions. When I got home and played it I really liked it and I still like it today. Mike Urso got the thumbs up when I heard the bass line on I Couldn't Believe What Happened Last Night (still a fave)
 
The one thing that's always bugged me though is the album title. Am I now correct in thinking that Rare Earth presented a batch of songs to Motown and Motown came up with the album title and the sleeve on their behalf? Did Rare Earth have any say in the album title at all? 
 



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RAY MONETTE
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THAT'S SOME INTERESTING INFO. ON THOSE TIMES IN THE U.K. DAVE. ACTUALLY,IT WASN'T MUCH DIFFERENT IN THE U.S. AT THAT TIME.AND STEVIE CERTAINLY WAS A BIG FACTOR IN BRINGING THE ROCKERS AROUND TO SOUL MUSIC.

THAT'S SURPRISING THAT WILLIE WASN'T IN TRI-FOLD LIKE THE U.S. HOW THE HECK DID THEY GET IN ALL THE PICS??

WILLIE WAS OUR PROJECT.WE WANTED TO WRITE AND PRODUCE ALONG WITH TOM BAIRD. WE WE WERE EXCITED ABOUT THE ALBUM WHEN IT WAS DONE,BUT MOTOWN DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH IT. IT DIDN'T FIT IN WITH THEIR NORM. IT WAS LIKE THEY GAVE US WHAT WE WANTED AND THEN PUT IT ON A SHELF. THEN THEY BROUGHT IN NORMAN AND MA WAS BORN. ACTUALLY,NORMAN WAS EVEN DISAPOINTED WITH THE PROMO ON MA.
YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT ALL THE ACTS AT MOTOWN WERE PRETTY MUCH MAN-MADE. FOR US TO GO IT ON OUR OWN LIKE THAT WAS WAY OFF THE CHART.I CREDIT OUR MANAGER RON STRASNER FOR IT.

AS TO THE NAME AND ARTWORK. MOTOWN HIRED A FIRM TO DO IT ALL.WE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

RAY

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UK Dave
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Thanks Ray

You mention the US version of Willie Remembers had a trifold sleeve with lots of pictures. There were no photos of the band on the UK sleeve. Now I'm curious and will be looking for a US version on ebay.

In fact, photos of the band were very rare on UK releases after 1971. There were no photos on In Concert, whilst One World only had the facial images on the front sleeve artwork (what a great sleeve design though). The last group shot we had was the photo on Ecology which still featured Rod and Kenny. Fashions had changed considerably over that short time span, particularly with regards to hair length. I think Rare Earth would have gained a lot more credibility in the UK if there'd been some live shots of the band. You all really looked the part. The only real photo I got to see was the studio shot with Norman Whitfield on the back of the Ma sleeve.

I should point out that Willie Remembers did contain a small inserted brown paper page featuring a drawing of the band. It lived on my bedroom wall for a few years.

Regarding the artwork etc, I can understand an outside firm dealing with the artwork but I'd never have guessed they'd be involved in choosing an album title. Mind you, I suppose the fact that I'm still asking who Willie was more than thirty years later, shows that it did attract some attention.



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doogie
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the us version of MA has a fold sleeve with photos inside

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UK Dave
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Thanks Doogie.

Hey, that's another folded sleeve we missed out on over here. The only folding sleeve we had was One World. That was the only gatefold sleeve we saw here, taking account of every LP from Get Ready through to Grand Slam.

I wonder if Richard has access to the inner sections of these gatefolds. It would be great to see them scanned on here (assuming they aren't already of course).

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martin
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poster that came with ma

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UK Dave
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Thanks for that Martin

That's the first time I've seen this poster. They don't even feature on my Ma CD booklet.

Nice to see a photo of Gil playing flute as opposed to sax. I immediately thought of the intro to Born to Wander. Also, Pete is one of those drummers who retain that traditional left hand stick gripping method. Steve will know more about this than me, but I always think it looks uncomfortable compared to modern rock drummers who tend to use the same grip for both hands. Can't fault Pete's playing though, that's for sure. Maybe that grip is what makes his snare sound so precise?

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Peter Rivera Rare Earth
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Well heres some answers for you. The folded poster is from the In Concert album, not "Ma" Rod Richards sang Feelin Allright, No 1 Man, and Searchin<br />Peter sang Get Ready <br />Gil sang When Joanie Smiles<br />John sang Train to Nowhere and Nice Place to Visit<br />Mota Molata was a dis-respectful slang term to discribe ourselves as Motown light skinned soul brothers.....as in Molado....We must have been in a state of mind alteration at the time. <br />Willie Remembers was named after my Old English Sheepdog named &quot;Willie&quot;. Tom Baird liked Willie and when we were tossing around titles he said something like &quot;I bet Willie Remembers&quot;.... so that's how things come about. Crazy I know but..

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UK Dave
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A real pleasure to see you on the forum Peter. So Willie really did exist after all!

As for sleeve inserts, I heard there was a photo insert in the US In Concert sleeve but was it really this one? I ask this because firstly it looks like Mike Urso rather than John Persh in the top right photo, and secondly, the logo containing the circle with the flash symbol appears on publicity for the Ma album.

Good Luck with the "Celebrate" project Peter.


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john
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The poster that Martin has shown to us is from MA and has Mike Urso on it.........In Concert has a poster too but it is a single sheet and of course has John Persh on bass.

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Richard
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Bottom right of poster in Eddies picture is printed R546L which of course is the Ma catalogue number.

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doogie
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That is without doubt the poster from MA.

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Peter Rivera
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Well you are correct! So sorry. This poster is from Ma....I was not thinking clearly late last night when I was viewing the forum. I had a long day of rehearsal and I just slipped up. "Foot in Mouth" desease.

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John
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Hi Peter
Do you remember doing a song with a band called Witness in around 1990?  I have always wondered how that came together?  Sounded great!

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Peter Rivera
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Yes I remember. Bill Dresser a producer called me and asked if I would sing on the song and I aggreed. I don't remember too much about it but I know I have a copy in my files at home. I'll have to check it out.

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RAY MONETTE
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I GUESS WILLIE REMEMBERED BUT PETE AND I FORGOT. I FORGOT THE STORY OF THE TITLE ,AND PETER FORGOT ABOUT THE POSTER.
WHAT'S THAT CALLED.......A SENIOR MOMENT??  CAN'T IMAGINE WHY. IT'S ONLY 34 YEARS AGO. LOL.

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John
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Ray, I cant remember what I did yesterday so 34 years is good, lol. 

Peter, it is great to have you on the forum........welcome!



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Peter Rivera
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Thanks for the welcome John. Well Ray cleared it up...He remembers more than I do you see, he's younger, he's just a kid. Ray, my best to Judy.

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UK Dave
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Peter
There's been numerous comments here regarding Universal's half hearted attitude to re-issuing classic Rare Earth albums on CD, particularly One World and Willie Remembers. I know there is a "2 on 1" CD version doing the rounds but I understand this has been put out by a third party and the quality leaves a lot to be desired. Usually these companies can't even get the artwork right.

I just wondered what your views are? It seems a shame that so much more could be done, especially if there are unreleased songs in the Motown vaults that could make interesting bonus tracks. In particular, it would be brilliant to hear the Live in Chicago tapes, if they still exist. Better still, a DVD compilation of early 70s live footage.

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Peter Rivera
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I went to great efforts to inquire about having access to the vaults of Rare Earth material, mainly to give insight as to material that might be of intrest to loyal fans. I offered to organize and keep records of all facets of the project's progress. After talking with many people from Motown all the way through Universal, I sort of threw my hands up in defeat. It seem that the companies just won't justify organizing such a project because it's "small potatoes" compared to the big picture. It's a numbers thing I'm sure. They feel (at least these were words to me) that sales of these unreleased songs just wouldn't amount to much. I know that they probably wouldn't bring in huge dollars but I think it would be nice to have for the people that would really enjoy hearing everything that Rare Earth had to offer. I know that in my own selfish way I would like to have them available for my future family members. You know when all of out cataloge was dropped, I'm sure all the members felt the same sense of being erased or invalidated in some way. These songs were of mine and all the other's lives. And it's a hard pill to swallow.....knowing that we sort have been "control-alt-delete!)

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RAY MONETTE
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"Well Ray cleared it up...He remembers more than I do you see, he's younger, he's just a kid".

THAT'S A GOOD ONE PETER!! YOU ALWAYS DID TELL GOOD JOKES. LOL.

THAT REALLY WAS A TOUGH PILL WHEN THEY DROPPED OUR CATALOGUE.
I DON'T WANT TO SOUND BITTER,BUT WE NEVER WERE PART OF THE MOTOWN "FAMILY".THEY NEVER INCLUDED US IN ANYTHING,AND WE FOUGHT AN UPHILL BATTLE JUST TO GET OUR ALBUMS PROMOTED.
REMEMBER HOW DISGUSTED NORMAN WAS WHEN THEY DROPPED THE BALL ON "MA" ?

BUT HEY......WE HAD SOME GOOD TIMES. GIVE DABAR OUR BEST TOO!!

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UK Dave
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Well at least you tried Peter. I know Ray has sent emails to the record company too, as has Richard the website host, but all to no avail. Profit is always the bottom line nowadays. Universal keep all that unreleased material firmly locked away whilst they continue to recycle your more familiar hits under different titles. They did include a couple of your songs on the Motown "Big Hits and Hard to Find Classics" CD series, but they didn't really surprise us with the songs they chose. To give them credit, they did put out some unreleased tracks on the 2CD set called "The Best of Rare Earth". But it begs a question of their marketing people. If this is truly Rare Earth's "best", why was it never released previously? 

I'm not the first person to say that Rare Earth deserve a quality 4 CD Box Set featuring carefully chosen material. Something along the lines of those put out by The Zombies and The Faces. Good material including live radio broadcasts, nice packaging and a decent booklet with plenty of photos and lots of text.

Yeah, I'm dreaming.... and in any case, its all been said before.



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UK Dave
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Hey Peter

(ref your book) I reckon your goose was cooked the day you visited Berry Gordy's house and he felt that Diana was giving you the eye!

Everytime I pick that book up to check something, its an hour before I put it away! I think I've read it four times.


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Richard
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Do you know what anoys me, time after time Motown/Universal will issue a cd by an artisit  who had only 1-2 singles released back in the 60's, put these tracks on the disc and then the remaining 20+ tracks will be unissued stuff from the vaults, now how can Universal justify these sort of releases as being commerically viable, but they clearly must be as  they come out all the time.
I know there is the Northern Soul market  in the U.K.that picks up a lot of sales on these releases but they surely can't come close to the  world wide sales of a Rare Earth CD.

A classic example is the new release from The Elgins, a serious Motown collector friend of mine tells me there are a staggering 28 unreleased tracks on this set, now if Universal can do this with The Elgins then they can certainly do it with R.E.

Perhaps we should consider contacting Universal and asking them how much it would cost to buy/license the R.E. stuff and get it issued independently, after all it has been done with bands such as Xit, Power of Zeus, and Rod Richard's band Road.

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UK Dave
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Re The Elgins....exactly Richard. I was thinking the very same thing yesterday about Barbara Randolph, David Ruffin, Florence Ballard and several others. I have that Barbara Randolph CD because I liked her only UK single, a version of the Holland-Dozier-Holland song I Got A Feeling, better known by the Four Tops. Even though these artists have all passed away, do Universal genuinely believe these CDs will sell in mass numbers? I don't think so.

When H-D-H left Motown to set up their Invictus and Hot Wax labels, there was something like 50 or 60 singles released between them. Of these, the only hits were Band of Gold by Freda Payne, a handleful of hits by Chairmen of the Board and Why Can't We Be Lovers by Holland and Dozier. Everything else fell on deaf ears. Yet, 30 years on, virtually the whole back catalogue of both labels has been re-issued on CD with bonus unreleased material, original artwork, extensive discography and information on each track in the inner booklets. Even the CDs themselves are printed with the respective record company logos. They are very collectable by nature of their contents and attention to detail. Most of the CDs in the series never had a sniff of chart action here in the UK. We're talking about acts like the Barrino Brothers, The Politicians, Ruth Copeland, Glasshouse, Eloise Laws, Laura Lee, 8th Day etc. Only a real soul collector would know of these artists in the UK.

To be honest, some of the material contained on these CDs is average at best, but so what? Sequel Records did a brilliant packaging job and I'm sure they didn't do this with a massive payback in mind. 



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John
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Peter,
I am puzzled by the feedback Motown have given regarding unreleased Rare Earth material.  These tracks can always be added to each individual album as bonus cuts, that in itself makes it a more attractive package for reissues. 

It does seem that they are happy in certain cases to licence material out to independant labels .........this has worked out very well indeed for the band XIT as they sell in large quantities.

The Rare Earth material that remains in the vaults has been identified and has been catalogued. This is a fact!  As you know Peter, it is like hitting a brick wall with them!

For example...........Bring Back The Thrill, Funky Black Man, Fortune Teller, Aint To Proud To Beg...King Kong......these are touching the surface of what they have.  Some may not be fully mixed but they exist and the proof is that you will know some of these tunes. 

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Ralph Terrana
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John,
I produced the XIT album and to be honest I don't think we got the promo I had hoped for from Motown. At the time I chalked it up to an Indian album was a little too far out for a company such as Motown.
At any rate, the bands mananger, Tommy Bee, somehow convinced the company to turn the masters over to him and he has successfully distributed my production ( Plight Of The Redman ) and another ( Silent Warrior ) through his own company.

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Mike
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Peter Rivera wrote:

I went to great efforts to inquire about having access to the vaults of Rare Earth material, mainly to give insight as to material that might be of intrest to loyal fans. I offered to organize and keep records of all facets of the project's progress. After talking with many people from Motown all the way through Universal, I sort of threw my hands up in defeat. It seem that the companies just won't justify organizing such a project because it's "small potatoes" compared to the big picture. It's a numbers thing I'm sure. They feel (at least these were words to me) that sales of these unreleased songs just wouldn't amount to much. I know that they probably wouldn't bring in huge dollars but I think it would be nice to have for the people that would really enjoy hearing everything that Rare Earth had to offer. I know that in my own selfish way I would like to have them available for my future family members. You know when all of out cataloge was dropped, I'm sure all the members felt the same sense of being erased or invalidated in some way. These songs were of mine and all the other's lives. And it's a hard pill to swallow.....knowing that we sort have been "control-alt-delete!)


I recall sending you an email a while back Peter about this. By the way, I hope you enjoyed the 1980 Harpo's performance I sent you a few years back.
I plan on finally (after 10 years) of catching the All Stars in concert...I'll have to see if you'll be near the eastern iowa/western illinois area...and I need to get one of those all stars cd's too. If they're on sale at the show, I'll snag one.


I have a huge list of unreleased stuff that's in Motown's Vaults by Rare Earth.
I may post that late tonight.

I'd love to see the actual albums and outtakes released. Until then...I plan on doing the following:

I will do needledrops (vinyl transfers) of all my Rare Earth vinyl, Dreams/Answers and the Generation soundtrack still elude me though (I'd love copies)...Get Ready up to Grand Slam I have on vinyl and am in the process of putting them on cd. I had the misfortuen of hearing those grey market 2-fer cd's...pardon my french but they suck! My vinyl sounds light years better...almost mint!


I have 2 questions for anyone here (fans, Ray, Pete)...the b-side Love Shines Down...it's one of those great forgotten Earth tunes. Now here are my queastions:

1. When was it recorded/who played bass on it?

The sonics sound very similar to Nice To Be With You, and that's suggest John Persh.

The production is by Tom Baird and since it was written by Ray & Pete, that also suggests it might be a Willie era recording...Mike on bass.

Here Comes The Night...that's Ray & Mark on that song, yes? The wah wah guitar sounds like a dead giveaway. Another great, lost song.



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RAY MONETTE
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DAVE,

THERE WERE MANY MORE HITS FROM HOT WAX/INVICTUS HERE IN THE STATES.FLAMING EMBERS,HONEYCONE,EIGHTH DAY,100 PROOF,AND OTHERS ALL HAD HITS.

AS FAR AS SOMEONE GETTING THE LICENSE FROM UMG TO RELEASE RARE EARTH MATERIAL,I THINK THE REASON THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED IS BECAUSE UMG'S LICENSING FEES ARE THE HIGHEST IN THE BUSINESS.

MIKE,

LOVE SHINES DOWN WAS WRITTEN AROUND THE SAME TIME AS NICE TO BE WITH YOU. I'M PRETTY SURE IT'S JOHN PLAYING BASS.
THAT SONG WAS ACTUALLY STARTED WHEN PETER AND I WERE ON A GOLF COURSE. WE USED TO PLAY A LOT OF GOLF.IT WAS RECORDED BEFORE WE MOVED TO L.A. SOMEWHERE BETWEEN LATE 71-EARLY 72.

HERE COMES THE NIGHT IS WITH ROD AND KENNY.   

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UK Dave
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Hi Ray

Here in the UK we had a music paper called Record Mirror. The greatest thing about that paper for me was that they printed the US Billboard Top 100 singles and albums alongside the British charts. I remember very clearly that Invictus was represented by 8th Day with "She's Not Just Another Woman", Freda Payne had "Bring The Boys Home", Parliament had "Silent Boatman" plus Hot Wax had, as you say, hits by 100 Proof Aged in Soul, Honeycone and Flaming Ember. We had a local record store that had a soul section and the guy that ran it was a DJ that really knew his stuff. He used to import a lot of US singles and quite often I'd stumble on imported Invictus and Hot Wax singles. People like the Barrino Brothers, Ruth Copeland and (later on) New York Port Authority.

As I said, Sequel Records did a brilliant collection of H-D-H label re-issues so I've more or less got the lot on CD. I bet you played on more than a few.

While I think about it, you can answer a burning question for me Ray. I've heard it said that the songwriters Ronald Dunbar and Edith Wayne were actually Holland and Dozier who were unable to use their own names due to their disputes over leaving Motown. At other times I've heard people speak of Dunbar and Wayne as though they were real people.

As for Rare Earth, when you and Mark replaced Rod and Kenny respectively, did you ever meet either of them at any stage? Did they ever drop in to catch a show? I think JP2 suggested that maybe Kenny left under a cloud and Rod wanted to go in a heavier musical direction, so my guess is maybe not.

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Mike
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RAY MONETTE wrote:
MIKE,

LOVE SHINES DOWN WAS WRITTEN AROUND THE SAME TIME AS NICE TO BE WITH YOU. I'M PRETTY SURE IT'S JOHN PLAYING BASS.
THAT SONG WAS ACTUALLY STARTED WHEN PETER AND I WERE ON A GOLF COURSE. WE USED TO PLAY A LOT OF GOLF.IT WAS RECORDED BEFORE WE MOVED TO L.A. SOMEWHERE BETWEEN LATE 71-EARLY 72.

HERE COMES THE NIGHT IS WITH ROD AND KENNY.   
Thank you Ray. I learn something new everyday smile I appreciate it.

I just finished listening to Willie Remembers tonight and got to thinking (my wife jokingly says that's a danegous thing) about "I Couldn't Believe What Happened Last Night". The first 2 verses were written and planned but was the rest of the song improvised? Like the song "Thoughts" (I'd give anything to hear the FULL version), "I Couldn't Believe What Happened Last Night" could go on longer and it wouldn't bother me one bit. Also, was it edited down or is it the full take. I just really enjoy the song and the Willie album. 



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Ralph Terrana
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Dave,
They,were in fact, real people and not an alias of any of the HDH production team.

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UK Dave
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Thanks Ralph

I was convinced that the rumour that it was H-D-H was true but thanks for putting me straight. It never occurred to me till now, but I expect some, if not a lot, of Invictus material may have been recorded at Terra Shirma or did they have their own recording facilities?

H-D-H had another good writing partnership in Norman "General" Johnson / Greg Perry and (sometimes) Angelo Bond. Did you ever work with / meet them? Norman Johnson is one of my all time heros since his days of fronting Chairmen of the Board. I had the good fortune to meet him on his UK tour in 1975 but he didn't have much to say. I think by that time the Chairmen had started to fizzle out. I know Danny Woods was with them but I can't remember if Harrison Kennedy was still there. It wasn't a particularly memorable performance as I recall.



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Doug
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Hi Ralph,

I've read the info you have wrote and made available on your website regarding the story behind your Terra Shirma studio in Detroit. Pity Motown could not have utilized your studio for further Rare Earth recordings. I've listened to a very clean copy of Rare Earth's Dreams/Answers album and think the quality is every bit as good, if not superior to Motown's recordings of the same era.

Question - It's my understanding that Universal not only controls all the Motown tapes but also the Verve Record label tapes as well. Is it true that would include the Dreams/Answers master tapes?

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doogie
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universal owns all motown and verve including dreams and answers

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RAY MONETTE
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DAVE,
 I PLAYED ON EVERY SESSION HDH DID FROM THE TIME THEY LEFT MOTOWN UNTIL LATE 1971,WHEN I JOINED RARE EARTH. THEY STARTED OUT AT TERA SHIRMA AND THEN BUILT THEIR OWN STUDIO ON THE STAGE OF AN OLD MOVIE THEATER CALLED TOWER. I MET ALL THE ARTISTS AT  ONE TIME OR ANOTHER. GENERAL JOHNSON SHOWED UP AT A FUNK GIG RECENTLY,TO SAY HI. FREDA PAYNE WAS A GUEST SINGER ON THAT SHOW TOO.

DANNY WOODS WAS PRODUCED BY BOB BABBITT WAAY BACK,AND WE WROTE AND PLAYED ON THE SESSION. THE SONG WAS CALLED "90 DAYS IN THE COUNTY JAIL". IT'S WELL KNOWN IN NORTHERN SOUL CIRCLES.

WAYNE DUNBAR ARE REAL PEOPLE(LIKE RALPH SAID),BUT BECAUSE OF THE LAWSUIT,THE BIG QUESTION IS,DID HDH REALLY WRITE THE SONGS AND PUT THEIR NAMES ON SOME OF THEM. THAT IS WHAT WE ALL THOUGHT BACK IN THE DAY.

ON THE ROD AND KENNY QUESTION: ROD CAME TO A SHOW IN DETROIT WAY BACK. WE ALSO SAW KENNY IN FLORIDA A COUPLE OF TIMES.


MIKE,

WE KEPT "COULDN'T BELIEVE" FAIRLY LOOSE SO WE COULD JAM ON IT A LITTLE. AFTER ALL ,ISN'T THAT WHAT R.E. IS ALL ABOUT? I THINK WHAT YOU HEAR IS THE WHOLE SONG.
"THOUGHTS" IS A WHOLE OTHER STORY. I'M NOT SURE OF THE EXACT LENGTH,BUT WE JAMMED ON THAT THING FOR AT LEAST AN HOUR OR MORE.
EVERYTHING YOU HEAR HAPPENED ON THE SPOT.....NONE OF IT WAS PLANNED OUT.

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UK Dave
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Ray

Once again you never leave a question unanswered. Thanks for all the trouble you take. Come the day you visit the UK with the (real deal) Funks, I'm so hoping to see the look on your face at the stage door when I shake your hand and inform you that I'm the pest that keeps asking you all those questions on the Rare Earthworld website :)

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Mike
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RAY MONETTE wrote:
MIKE,

WE KEPT "COULDN'T BELIEVE" FAIRLY LOOSE SO WE COULD JAM ON IT A LITTLE. AFTER ALL ,ISN'T THAT WHAT R.E. IS ALL ABOUT? I THINK WHAT YOU HEAR IS THE WHOLE SONG.
"THOUGHTS" IS A WHOLE OTHER STORY. I'M NOT SURE OF THE EXACT LENGTH,BUT WE JAMMED ON THAT THING FOR AT LEAST AN HOUR OR MORE.
EVERYTHING YOU HEAR HAPPENED ON THE SPOT.....NONE OF IT WAS PLANNED OUT.
Thanks Ray :) You are exactly right about R.E. stretching it out a bit...Rare Earth was excellent at it and it's what really signified them in my opinion.

I've always dug "Couldn't Believe" since I heard it years ago. One thing I've always noticed about that song is your little "guitar bits" you add right before Mark's solo at the end. I like those. I don't know how to describe them other than they sound like a sort of "whoop" noise.  

Thoughts...I've played that cut for a friend to turn him onto "jam bands". He really dug it. He did say that the song ended too soon. I guess it's just so good that it's over before ya know it.  




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UK Dave
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Mike

I know exactly what you mean by the "whoop" bits that Ray plays at the start of Mark's solo. I think Gil puts a few bits of sax in there too doesn't he?

Willie Remembers is a great piece of work whatever Motown made of it. Mike Urso should take a bow for his contribution on bass. The vocal arrangements also deserve a mention.

Couldn't Believe has always been one of my favourite Rare Earth tracks.

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Martin G.
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Hi UK Dave

You may be interested to know that Ron Dunbar at one time worked for Motown and co-wrote Greetings (This is Uncle Sam) as recorded by the Valadiers & Monitors. I believe he recorded under the name Ronnie Love.

Apparently it is Edith Wayne's name which is the clue to H-D-H  involvement on Invictus/Hot Wax/Music Merchant recordings.

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RAY MONETTE
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DAVE,

LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT DAY!

HERE'S A LITTLE MORE ON THE DUNBAR WAYNE QUESTIONS.OF COURSE,AS WAS SAID,RON DUNBAR IS A REAL PERSON. I CAN TESTIFY TO THAT.I SAW HIM ON MORE THAN ONE OCCAISION IN THE STUDIO. THERE WERE TWO STORIES ON EDITH WAYNE AT THE TIME. THE FIRST WAS THAT SHE WAS TOTALLY FICTITIOUS,AND WAS A PSEUDONYM FOR EDDIE HOLLAND. THE SECOND WAS THAT SHE WAS A RELATIVE OF THE HOLLAND FAMILY,AND HER NAME WAS USED BY EDDIE HOLLAND BECAUSE HE COULDN'T USE HIS OWN NAME. BRIAN AND LAMONT'S MOTOWN CONTRACTS RAN OUT BEFORE EDDIES. THAT'S WHY EDITH WAYNE WAS AROUND FOR QUITE AWHILE.

BOTTOM LINE.......H.D.H. WROTE THE SONGS.

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UK Dave
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Thanks for the info Martin and also thanks to Ray. I have that Monitors record on a Motown CD compilation.

Both you and Ray have pointed out that it is Edith Wayne that is the pseudonym. It makes a lot of sense. A lot of the early songwriting credits went to Holland / Dozier, sometimes with a third named writer such as Angelo Bond, Weatherspoon, Miner, Scherrie Payne etc. I always wondered why the other Holland brother had dropped off the landscape and didn't know whether it was Brian or Eddie. It now seems to fit that it was Eddie as explained by Ray.

Further to this, I just noticed quite a few references on the internet which say the same thing. As for how the name came about, to quote one post, "Edith was Lamont's mom and Wayne was for Wayne State. The story goes that at the time they were trying to come up with a 'bogus" name they looked out on to Woodward and saw the sign Wayne State University and that was it"


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Martin G
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Dave
 I have managed to find only one other Motown composition by Ron Dunbar, namely Sing What You Wanna, the B-side of Here Comes the Judge (Soul35044) in 1967, which was co-written with Shorty Long. The fact that someone who had only two songs published by Jobete in seven years should become so prolific at Invictus says it all.
 Just a thought, but thinking of I'm Not My Brother's Keeper, I wonder if Flaming Ember were being groomed as Hot Wax's answer to Rare Earth.

Richard
 No doubt you'll be delighted to hear that the Elgin's collection with its 28 unreleased tracks is finally released on Monday!
 However, it does occur to me that Motown is having to trawl through its vaults in order to produce the Complete Motown Singles Series, which is now up to 1966. As 3 box-sets are planned every year, perhaps now would be a good time to pester Universal/Hip-oSelect to isssue some unreleased Rare Earth material to tie in with the 1969 and 1970 sets.




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Richard
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Martin

Oh was that a little pink thing I just saw flying past my head ha ha.

To be serious, my pestering Universal/Hip-o days are well over, just a total waste of time, no point. The phrase "banging my head against a brick wall"springs to mind.

The problem with Rare Earth Martin was they only released 11 million selling albums for Motown, had they just put out 1 single(non hit of course) then disapeared, no problem there would be a 4 CD box set with a 75 page booklet, 105 never before released tracks etc. Look Ma is their Motown album available on CD,if they can't get the remaining 10 albums out on CD we have got no chance on seeing any more of the unreleased stuff comming out.

I often wonder had the band been signed to one of the many other big record labels in America during the 70's how they would  now fare in the CD reissue stakes, I think a lot healthier.

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UK Dave
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Flaming Ember may well have been the Hot Wax attempt to compete with Rare Earth. Somebodys Been Sleeping (In My Bed) is one of my all time favourite songs and, ironically, Ray Monette played on it. They also released an underrated song called Everything Good Is Bad. Both songs written by General Johnson and Greg Perry if my memory is correct. General was lead singer in Chairmen of the Board and the Johnson / Perry partnership were just as prolific as Dunbar / Wayne.

The Elgins had a classic with "Heaven Must Have Sent You". I've never heard any other songs by them that comes anywhere close. Put Yourself In My Place was so so. Those 28 (really?) unreleased songs will presumably therefore consist of B grade songs by Motown staff writers, most of them bland and non descript. The Elgins, along with most other Motown acts, were singles artists. Rare Earth were an albums band which is why I think any archived material will be more listenable, varied, interesting and worthy of release.

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Mike
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UK Dave wrote:

It must be that de-odourant you are using Steve LOL

No seriously, it goes that way sometimes. Ray has been quiet this past week or two so I presume he is away touring. I'm sure before long that there'll be another session of activity.

Keep posting. I love reading your contributions!

Regards
Dave


Just like the old commercial from the early 1990's for "Shower Fresh":

Just a sprinkle a day helps keep odor away...have you had your spinkle today? biggrin

 



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Mark M
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martin wrote:

poster that came with mac3_1.JPG


Hey Mike...Here that poster you was looking for....

 



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Mike
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Thansk Mark :)

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